Episode One: Agile Marketing Around the Globe with Adrie Dolman

00:00:03 John Cass 

Welcome to the deep dive into Agile Marketing podcast with John Cass. I'm your host John Cass here in Boston, MA. Today I'll be interviewing Adrie Dolman, a marketing consultant, and provides agile marketing advice to companies in the Netherlands. Today's podcast is a little different. 

From my brand podcast, instead of interviewing Adrie from his work as a marketer and using agile, the focus is on the state of agile marketing in the Netherlands. Welcome, Adrie. 

00:00:33 Adrie Dolman 

Thank you. Welcome. 

00:00:35 John Cass 

So in preparing for this call, we talked a little bit about your journey to using agile marketing. While the focus is on the Netherlands, I think we should start with how marketing is changing in the Netherlands and how that got you started with agile marketing. 

00:00:51 Adrie Dolman 

Oh yeah. Great. Well, well for me it wasn't a Big Bang. Uh, it emerged from my activities as a dialects market here and data marketing services in 1989. So that's already 30 years ago. 

And at that time, database marketing was a bit like rocket science for the companies. 

So we learned from customer data how to optimize product propositions and marketing campaigns and that's what we learn the companies. And for me that was really the the, the fundamentals and the beginning of my agile marketing journey, although at that time I had never heard from the word. 

Agile. 

I used the word agile for the first time in the name of my services in early 2007. 

I was asked to reorganize the marketing department of an insurance company and I did it in self organization. So I trusted the people that they that they could change their way of working and organize it better than I could tell them because they know their company, they know what they. 

Can do and know how to collaborate as a team. 

So I. 

Discussed about in the shared vision and how digital market has delivered the highest value for an insurance company that's working as an online insurance company and how they they create the shortest time to market and have the lowest risk of waste. And they started discussing and. 

Within a month, they told the management how they were going to work. 

So that was great success and that was for me the next step in my journey for agile marketing and working with teams in self organization for better propositions and better campaigns for online and digital marketers. 

So that had a much better, much more impact than a change manager who wanted to change. 

I learned the people how to change their own system, so it's a different view on how to reorganize and how to organize marketing power. 

And in the same year I met an agile coach which was in the Netherlands. Well, I think the first certified scrum coach and together we adopted the Innovation games and we surfaced the agile adoption in large companies. So that's where it came from. 

So it was a long journey, but now, 30 years later, I'm still learning from customer behavior and customer data. 

00:03:34 John Cass 

That's great. And so what's the structure of marketing in Netherlands or or how do companies use marketing and manage marketing in companies there? 

00:03:43 Adrie Dolman 

Yeah. Well, that, that's that's a huge change since last century in, in the last century, we did a lot of Bush marketing in the Netherlands. 

And uh, well, I think that's because we copied the American examples of successful push marketing, especially in food such as example. Coca-Cola was a kind of best practice here in here in the Netherlands. And but the US way was always more sales driven and more. 

Short term profit than the Dutch way. Dutch people are actually very sober in our. 

Thinking and how we buy stuff so hyping is not the Dutch way of marketing, it's more about creating customer value and well we we're not the believers in commercials, we are believers in, yeah. 

The experience as a customer in buying stuff that has the value for us the highest value. 

00:04:44 John Cass 

In my early days of adopting agile marketing in 2009, I heard a lot about Dutch companies and agencies using agile in marketing. What makes the Dutch culture such a fertile ground for agile and marketing? 

00:04:59 Adrie Dolman 

Ohh yeah yeah, I think really. That's an uh, a cultural thing. Yes. Uh, well, uh, pull marketing is what fits us better than push marketing. 

Because it's based on the inside value, so no smooth stock, but more transparency in value propositions. 

And customer delight propositions are doing it very well here in the Netherlands and ensure also fantastic market shares. So I think it's we believe in true value more than instead of beautiful outside. 

Packages. 

00:05:35 John Cass 

Great. So can can you tell me about some of the companies who've adopted our job marketing in the Netherlands? 

00:05:42 Adrie Dolman 

Ohh yeah, sure. Well, not every company has adopted already at your marketing, of course. But well, we're on the way. 

And a nice example. I'm always using this cool blue kind of company. 

Like in America, Amazon. 

And I think they started about 10 or 12 years ago as in a commodity market. 

And their slogan is everything for a smile. What means they understand very well the value of a customer delight strategy. 

And every day, the multidisciplinary agile teams try out new ideas to get a smile on the face of the customer. And they succeed very well. So they make better, better turnovers, better profits than other commodity suppliers. 

And they grow exponentially. 

Another example maybe is Evan Embro. I was involved there by startup innovation teams for open banking. 

And this new law here for the bank and well, that means that the data of the bank is of the customer. So that's a threat for the bank, for the business model of the bank. So they had to create new value propositions. 

And well, we started with one team and now nowadays there are eight teams only for creating. 

New apps or new collaborating with fintech companies, and they are very successful in it. So they validate all their assumptions in short iterations and adapt very fast into the changing environment. 

So that's a great example of a bank. So bank culture is not the best culture for as a way of working, but this bank was doing it very well. 

And also a new phantom fall neon fateful is an energy company and their business to business department. I helped them to to transform from the old school marketing to more agile marketing and well they were very successful. So they we first created what is the value of. 

Energy. And then we created value teams and the value teams were end to end teams. They created complete new values. 

And this year they won the prize of the best servicing company in B2B. 

So, well, I'm proud of them. 

00:08:23 John Cass 

That's excellent. That's excellent. So what types of adoption have you seen maybe with some examples, you know, different types of frameworks? Is it scrum, Kanban, hybrid. What are you? Thing. 

00:08:36 Adrie Dolman 

Well, it's more hybrid in the first, in, in, in, in the early days, maybe 2008, well a lot of companies started to do scrum. 

And their assumption was that there will be agile by using scrums. So there were marketing departments and marketeers started with Scrum always come down and well, that was nice for a few months. But well, then they felt that that wasn't that, that didn't bring them what they expected. 

So it was another way of working, but not with a different mindset. 

And agile is more about changing your mindset, shifting from traditional thinking in marketing and the new way of thinking. 

And now it's more hybrid. So it means I don't know. Do you know the the Canadian framework from Dave Snowden? 

The framework tells you what types of work and what types of management fits to the to to the work, and if you have work, bring it to some typical kind of teams. 

And that's more the hybrid organization now is. Is the most successful system for Azure marketing. 

00:09:58 John Cass 

I do see a lot of companies taking that same approach, so it's it's kind of interesting to see what's going on in the Netherlands in the in. 

The same vein so. 

How is agile marketing adoption impacting marketing transformations? In other words, how do C-Suite leaders react to the adoption of agile market? 

Saying is there more transparency and communication between the marketing department and the C-Suite leaders in the Netherlands. 

00:10:28 Adrie Dolman 

Oh yeah, sure. Completely at your marketing is a conviction to deal with markets and people in a completely different way. So marketing is no longer from the marketing department or the marketing manager, it's from the entire company. It's a holistic system. 

And it's also part of its stakeholders. So it's a much broader than the traditional marketing department. 

In the last century, it's happened that there was only poor communication between the C-Suite and marketing. 

Middle managers and marketing managers were, well, top down and Butler communication channels in the organization. 

Now they are partners with the same subjects, but each with a different role. So there's a world of difference and makes an organization more agile. 

00:11:26 John Cass 

What organizations are supporting agile marketing in the Netherlands? Are there any meetups, online websites or bloggers or authors like yourself? 

00:11:36 Adrie Dolman 

Ohh yeah, yeah, sure. Well, everything that is successful has many bloggers right away. 

But the perception here in the Netherlands is that it's a lot of opinions. So the capability of blockers is slightly lower in the Netherlands than in America. 

Here, bloggers are seen as pushers or attention grabbers, and that fits less to the Dutch morality. 

So yeah, well, to be honest, I I never listened to that kind of. I kept all my, my stuff, all my knowledge from practice and from the university. And that's more the the, the university way or for business and society. 

How to collaborate in a society with business? 

00:12:24 John Cass 

Right. And you, you've written a book about Agile, Marketing right. 

00:12:30 Adrie Dolman 

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, it's also called at your marketing. 

00:12:35 John Cass 

And it's in Dutch at the moment. Any other languages or will it be translated eventually into English? 

00:12:42 Adrie Dolman 

Oh yeah. Well, maybe someday it will translate it to English, but for now it's only in English. It was 2016. 

And then a publisher called me and asked me if I was willing to write a book about what I'm doing, so about actual marketing. 

Well, and I thought about it and OK, I I wrote a book and it it's in Dutch and it it was also nominated within months in the Netherlands and in Belgium. 

Because it gave a new perspectives on marketing and how to work holistic and an organization for a better marketplace. 

And then my publisher said, well, maybe it's also for the American market or the English language, but they didn't publish themselves in English. So they contacted some publishers in America. 

And well, unfortunately the publisher in America, the first question was how many books are you going to buy for yourself? 

So I thought, well, I thought, well, if I want to buy my own book, I wrote the book so and I don't want to sell books because I'm. I'm a consultant. I'm not a publisher or books. 

And so we never agreed. And well, now it's only in Dutch, but well, I'm still thinking about it to all to let it translate it for myself. 

And then publish it maybe for myself in English. 

00:14:11 John Cass 

Well, I think the interesting factor for the American audience would be that because the Dutch were so early in the adoption of agile marketing, it would be interesting to see how substantial. 

All the inclusion of agile marketing is in the marketing community there, so that that would be of great interest. So I think I think the book would be of interest and I do hope you eventually translate it so that we can we can all read it. 

00:14:41 Adrie Dolman 

Yeah, well, maybe. But it's now, now it's winter. So we have Christmas and maybe. I mean then then I have time for. 

Asking someone to make the translation and then review it and publish it so well, maybe let's say I'll do it. 

00:15:00 John Cass 

That would be great. That would be great. You've heard it here first, yeah. 

00:15:02 Adrie Dolman 

Yeah. 

00:15:06 John Cass 

So next what do you think is the future for agile marketing in the Netherlands. 

00:15:11 Adrie Dolman 

Well, I I think at your marketing is is the new way of doing marketing. So it will be the normal way for for marketing because it's it's about collaborating as a company for delivering the highest value. 

With the lowest risk insurance start to market and that's where in the fast changing environment and fast changing industry, well that's well I I can't imagine that there will be successful marketing without doing it on an agile way. 

So the old way is too expensive and too less effective. I think it's not relevant anymore, so the complete system has already shifted and the old way isn't working anymore. So there's only one outcome and that agile is the new standard I think. 

00:16:09 John Cass 

I concur. Andre and I really want to thank you for today's podcast and any of you. It's been great to talk with you and learn about what's been going on in the Netherlands with agile marketing. Thank you. 

00:16:21 Adrie Dolman 

Yeah. Thank you, John. Thank you. 

Thanks for joining us on the deep dive into our dual marketing with John Cass. My thanks to Adrie and we'll see you next time.